Blog #3: Critique of Cinderella
Blog #3 Critique of fairytales
Choose one:
1. What is the process by which a good mother can turn into a wicked stepmother? See paragraph 10—especially Schectman’s analyst’s notes—for a starting point. How can a good mother and wicked stepmother co-exist in one person?
2. A critic of Bettleheim’s position, Jack Zipes, argues that Bettleheim distorts fairytale literature by insisting that the tales have therapeutic value and speak to children almost as a psychoanalyst might. Ultimately, claims Zipes, Bettleheim’s analysis corrupts the story of “Cinderella” and closes down possibilities for interpretation. What is your view of Bettleheim’s psychoanalytic approach to fairytales?
3. Morrison suggests an opposition between women’s ambition and their “nurturing sensibilities.” First, what are “nurturing sensibilities?” Are they learned (from fairytales for instance)? Are they inborn? What is the difference between ambition and nurturing sensibilities? How might this difference manifest itself in the workplace? In the Perrault version of Cinderella? In the Grimm version?
posted by DrEmmerling at 10:15 AM
22 Comments:
Bettleheim's psychoanalytic evaluation of Cinderella seems like he is reading too far into the story. Cinderella is a popular story due to its magical qualities and entertaining scenes. Bettleheim argues that children like Cinderella becuase they can relate to it on many levels. He believes the child stops feeling guilty about having angry thoughts, and they feel lucky to be in the situation they are in. Also, the child relates to the need to pass those who feel superior to them. This seems ridiculous. Although a child may relate to the story on some levels (lack of attention at home, sibling rivalry etc.) that is the case with any story. Stories appeal to people for many reasons and a children's story that teaches good morals should not be analyzed any further.
I agree with Jack Zipes agrument against Bettleheim. He seems to corrupt the story and ruin its innocent nature.
I strongly disagree with Bettleheim's psychoanalytic approach to "Cinderella". Although he did have a very interesting opinion on the underlying message of the fairytale, I believe that he was looking too far into the tale and over thinking things. I agree with Jack Zipes when he states that Bettleheim's analysis corrupts the story. I believe that children, and adults as well, are drawn to "Cinderella" because of the stories magical elements, as well as its happily ever after ending that people wish could be a reality. Bettleheim definitely seems to distort the fairytale by incorporating therapeutic value, much like a psychoanalyst might do. He brings in Freudian psychology numerous times throughout his analysis, and in my opinion he is overanalyzing a story that was written with none of these underlying messages in mind.
-Chris Albo
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I believe that nurturing sensibilities are not learned. I believe that a mother, or woman is born with these sensibilities of being able to care for a child or someone else. Ambition is different than nurturing sensibilities because ambition keeps you from caring for someone. In the workplace these two characteristics can be either good or bad. If one is too nurturing in the workplace then one can be pushed around easily and not respected, just like Cinderella. If one is more ambitious and caring for herself she might be more likely to succeed in the workplace.
Bettleheim is definitely over analyzing this fairy tale. A good mother can turn into a wicked step-mother just by the examples in text. Bettleheim’s idea of a position within the family shows change within the parental unit. A wicked step mother can develop by giving more love and compassion to one child, similar to that of Cinderella. The evil step-sisters were love more by the mother and Cinderella was treated horribly. A good mother and an evil step-mother can coexist just by this very thought. For example, the step-mother was a good mother to the two sisters and she was evil towards Cinderella. This shows, although overall this doesn’t show good parenting, that a parent can be good towards one child and evil towards another.
Kyle Valenzuela
In his analysis of the Cinderella story, Bruno Bettelheim argues that the story’s main purpose is to appeal to children through the conflict of sibling rivalry. Many critics of Bettelheim, including Jack Zipes, claim that Bettelheim’s analysis ruins the true meaning and value of the Cinderella story by its different and assertive approach. However, Bettelheim explains his theory very effectively and with great support. Although he seems to overanalyze a simple story for deep inherent meaning, his conclusions are plausible, interesting, and quite insightful.
Bettelheim claims that children will relate to Cinderella by feeling the pain that she goes through when she is forced to do work and is unloved. Although most children are loved dearly by their parents, and are certainly not forced to complete daunting chores for the entire day, Bettelheim argues that they will see themselves as Cinderella, and their siblings as the evil stepsisters. In this sense, Bettelheim does give psychoanalytical qualities to the fairytale, yet it is contestable whether or not this approach “corrupts the story”. An individual can interpret the story however he or she likes, and usually does so based upon how they relate to the characters or plot. Bettelheim’s psychoanalytic assertions are not an incorrect way of interpreting the fairytales – simply a different method.
Morrison is correct by stating that a women's ambition and her nurturing sensibilities are two opposing things. I believe that no matter what the circumstances when a woman is caring for someone or something she has inborn nurturing sensibilities. She knows how to care for the child, or a kitten, or her eighty year old grandmother in a way that others don't. Ambition as defined by the dictionary is "an eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or power." Ambition is all about the determination of a woman to do whatever she thinks is necessary. Morrison states "you are the woman who will take your place in the world where you can decide who shall flourish and who shall wither..." (591)I think that when a woman becomes overly ambitious, she loses all compassion such as her nurturing sensibilities for a situation. It’s common to lose a sense of compassion for others when trying to strive in the workplace because you need to be a strong link and must care only for yourself.
Morrison claims that you should care more about your nurturing sensibilities rather than ambition. Be more of the Cinderella and respect others, rather than a stepmother or possibly a stepsister that only cares for their own personal growth. I would agree with this statement to an extent. It would be harder to climb the ladder in the workforce if you are constantly letting people walk all over you. On the contrary if you are too ambitious, you might not have any friends or colleagues to share the good times with. In the workforce, one must find a good balance in order to succeed. Be both a Cinderella and a stepsister.
-Lauren Bale
To begin with, by listening to Cinderella, children typically place themselves in her role. I think the reason why so many people like this story and identify with it is
because it is a fantasy fulfillment of some sorts. I think on some level they feel that they are Cinderella, who ultimately will be recognized and appreciated for themselves and everyone will know just how better they were. If this statement is taken to be true then one of Bettleheim’s statements is true: “… behind the surface humility of Cinderella lies the conviction of her superiority to mother and sisters…….This conviction assures every ‘Cinderella’ that eventually she will be discovered by her prince.” Or in other words, since all children experience sibling rivalry, they want some assurance that they are superior to their siblings in some way, whether it is an instance in reality or given in fantasy fulfillment.
However, I agree with Jack Zipes's first statement because overall this level of psychoanalysis does sort of corrupt the story of Cinderella. We all look back on the days when we enjoyed fairy tales with a hint of nostalgia. But, after completely dissecting it and looking at it under a microscope it destroys the innocence of the story. It probably is that we are so accustomed to the story of Cinderella that any ulterior motives that others say the story has threatens our own fond memories of our past, and thus it destroys the charm (and innocence)that we remember that the story has.
As for Zack Zipes's statement that this sort of analysis will close any avenues of discussions, I feel that the opposite is true. Writing of this sort will draw both supporters and critics. This will cause even more possibilities for interpretations, not fewer (since there is something to argue about).
I feel like Bettleheim's phsychoanalytic approach to the Cinderella story destroys the tradition of fairytales. I believe that stories are told for to children for entertainment purposes and it should not be used as a tool to resolve family conflicts or problems such as "sibling rivalary". Little children simply uses folktales only for amusement and entertainment. Moreover, they do not watch Cinderella because there is a therapeutic value behind it. Bettleheim's pshychoanalytic makes the story more confusing and complicated for children. Cinderella is a beautiful children's story which already teaches kids good values, morals, and principle, therefore fairytales should not be anaylzed or evaulated. According to Bettelheim, he argues, "Second his analysis demostrates how a scholarly point of view- a coherent set of assumptions about the way the world works"( 568), but a Disney story should not be scholarly analyzed because it is meant for kids not for scholars. Yes, I do agree that it teaches kids moral, but how do we explain to kids the magical aspect of the story such as the golden fleece and the magical fish bone (Asian Cinderella). It is difficult for kids to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and what is real and what is fake. Therefore, I agree with Jack Zipes, Bettleheim's analysis corrupts the story of Cinderella.
Nurturing sensibilities are the abilities for a woman to care for something. Some of the ability is instinct but some is learned from the examples given to you by mothers and women people grow up around. The part of the nurturing sensibility that is learned comes from the traditions of the times. Women may choose to raise their children in different ways, but that may not be socially acceptable at that time. Ways of nurturing are not only learned from examples but from books, television, and other sources of media.
Having ambition and being nurturing are two character traits that can disagree with each other. Women tend to step on each other to feel better about themselves. A woman’s ambitions can cause jealousy and rivalry in the work place. In a perfect world everyone should respect each other in the workplace but everyday people put others down to better themselves. In Perrault’s version of “Cinderella” Cinderella did not stand up for herself. Instead, she took what was given to her by her stepmother and still helped her stepsisters who were treated better than her. The same is true in the Grimm version of Cinderella in that she waits for good things to happen to her.
-Lauren Y.
1.According to Schectman, one of the critical aspects of a nuclear family is the psychological and substantive care that a father provides a mother as she gives primary support to the couple's children, which is exemplified quite literally by Schectman's observation of a young husband feeding his wife while she feeds their children. If this support from the father of the nuclear family is removed – through absence or emotional withdrawal, stress will build and build, and while the mother will still mean well, she can become unhappy and angry. If the lost husband is replaced by a new one, with children of his own, the mother may be so exhausted from trying to support her children without a father that she refuses to accept the new burden of another child, leading the mother to ignore or treat the stepchild with outright cruelty. In this way, the mother can become an evil stepmother without meaning to be, her only objective the protection of her own children.
Morrison's thesis that there is an opposition between women's ambition and their "nurturing sensibilites". I believe he is correct in this idea.
Ambition is a drive that is self centered based solely on the desire to accomplish something for one's self, whereas "nurturing sensibilites" revolve around the drive to achieve something for somebody else, the desire to care for another, a completely selfless goal. Too much of either ambition or nurture can lead to the diminish of the other as they are opposite the subject can lose sight of the other side.
In Cinderella the two sides have a strong presence. In Cinderella's character, her "nuturing sensiblities" cause her to care for teh others around her and leave no time for herself to get ready for the ball. On the other hand, her step family is overly ambitious in their goal to win the love of the Prince that it causes them to treat Cinderella poorly. All in all, Morrison's theory is clearly supported by the classic fairytale of Cinderella.
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I think that Bettleheim's psychoanalytic approach to the fairytale "Cinderella" and others like it, has some relevance but overall seems to be over analyzed and complex. Bettleheim's approach seems to me to give the children far too much credit in terms of their analysis and critical thinking skills at such a young age. When Bettleheim states that children at some point or another believe they should be "banned from the presence of others" he is going too far in relating Cinderella to modern children. Of course children are aware that they can relate to Cinderella on some personal level, be it mean siblings or having to complete chores or whatever. I do agree with the point that Bettleheim makes when he states that children can see how lucky they are when comparing themselves to Cinderella's harsh life. This is especially relevant when children begin to get older and may start taking certain things for granted. However, overall I disagree with Bettleheim's approach because he is missing the entire point of the fairytale of Cinderella: a beautiful story that can be passed on from generation to generation. Obviously certain simple points can be derived from the story, such as always be nice to your siblings. I think it is ridiculous to relate the classic fairytale of Cinderella to the desire to have sex with the parent of the opposite sex. I think that when Bettleheim is overanalying too much, and is losing the true essence of the story.
In reading Schectman's piece, Cinderella, and the loss of father-love, it is quite apparent that a nurturing caring woman can be a good mother while simultaneously encompassing traits of evil, jealously and revenge of a wicked stepmother. The possibility of this good/evil existing in a person is very real as well supported by her real life examples. One can be a good, nurturing mother by loving their child, taking them under their wing, teaching them about life and love, as well as being their primary caregiver and their role model. But a mother's role is not the only role that influences and can leave a lasting impression on the raising of a child. A father's role is also extremely important and even though the love and affection may be shown and demonstrated in a negative way,"...when kate eloped, her father, furious, summoned her, her husband and his parents...he told her husband...his bride was lazy, disobedient, dishonest and a tramp." Now, in this real-life case, the father may very well have felt this way, but if you really analyze any situation where when a girl grows into a woman and how they aren't usually as close to their male role model as they once were when they were a child, and as the woman grows up to leave the " man in her life" for a new man, a husband, extreme jealousy can occur. This bitterness can drive anyone mad. The anger can lead to the father not being able to love and become gloomy and cold to others who try to mend his broken, lovesick heart. This was the case with the stepmother in Cinderella, because she wanted love and affection which she was cut short of when she became a widow, and her daughter's yearned for nothing more than to be loved again by a father figure. They didn't necessarily have to constitute evil and hatred, really it was just severe jealously that persisted over time and a long lack of love from a broken-hearted father. A stepmother can become wicked because she has gone through so much hurt and anguish with the loss of her husband and she also has to help her children with their grief that when she does remarry she sort of expects her new husband to give her love and his heart and care for her and her family. But when a man, so broken hearted by his loss of a wife and a daughter which was his last true connection to a life he once had filled with happiness and love, cannot give his new wife a mere fraction of what she seeks, she becomes bitter and cold, and points the blame on the only thing that she thinks could be the problem, his daughter. Thus, a good loving mother can also become or coexist as a wicked stepmother, because a broken heart and lack of love really leaves no hope for happiness, especially in the fairytale of Cinderella.
I think that all women are born with nurturing sensibilities, all mothers experience their natural caring side when they have children. Ambition got in the way of the stepsisters natural nurturing instincts. Women in the workplace are often put in the position of choosing ambition over their nurturing sensibilities. I think that all women are expected to being nurturing and caring because of the simple fact that they are women so when they show some ambition it is seen as an atack against their fellow women. In Cinderella the stepsister's ambition got in the way of their nurturing instincts because they wanted to get ahead of their sister to marry the prince, however in the end the sister who showed her nurturing instincts won over her stepsisters.
According to Schectman, a good mother can turn into a wicked stepmother through the lack of the husband’s presence. Schectman uses an example of a man who is absent from his family because of his military duties. The wife who happens to be a mother, begins to act differently as far as her lifestyle and the way she treats her children. The lack of that male figure is what makes her lose her patience as she just does not have that support from her husband who keeps the family closer together. It is the father who keeps a family unified and his physical and emotional absence brings out the wicked stepmother in a good mother. The good mother and the wicked stepmother can however co-exist in one person. If the mother was to re-marry to a man who had a child it could be too much for her to be able to accept and care for the new child. The stepchild would be ignored and simply considered as an obstruction to the happiness of her and her children. Though it may not have been her intention to treat the child that way, the good mother unintentionally brings out the wicked stepmother.
Battleheim argues that the story “Cinderella’s essential theme is sibling rivalry and it could influence on young children’s behaves and beliefs through the conflicts among their sisters or brothers. I think that Bettleheim’s psychoanalytic approach to fairytales distort the story of “Cinderella”. The “Cinderella” is one of the famous children stories that could bring sensation and delight to one’s life. Children increase their fertile imagination and new ideas from the fairytales they read. The most fairytales also contain moral lessons and wisdom of life from our ancestors for young kids considering from the educational point of view. For example, children learn to do their best and not to lose hope and courage in any terrible situations from the story of “Cinderella”. Therefore, I agree with Jack Zipes.
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I am strong believer in women's intuition. I believe that women are born with the ability to care for their youth. These "nurturing sensibilities" include nursing and educating their children. These traits are different from amibition. Ambition is what drives women to succeed without regards to others and their feelings. This can be seen most clearly in the workplace. The movie "Devil Wears Prada" demonstrates this interaction perfectly. Andy, played by Anne Hatthaway, puts aside her nuturing sensibilities for her colleague Emily, for her own ambition to succeed. She was offered a trip to Paris instead of Emily who was originally promised the trip. She was unsure at first, but realized the success it would bring her if she went. The road to success always will have negative consequences for others.
-Matt Hale
According to Jacqeline M. Schectman, father's support of mother is essencial for a family since he provides her with money, strengh, and enjoyable life. If father is absent, mother would be isolated and would lack the source of energy. She gets lonely, the house gets messy, dishes go unwashed and she might start abusing her step child. However, when father returns, she becomes a good mother again in front of him, but she is still a wicked mother and her step child would become the target of her anger since it is not her real child and she probably has been developed a habit of mocking the child with her real children while father has taken a long trip.
*Repost from personal blog*
I believe that Jack Zipes is entirely incorrect in his interpretation of Cinderella and BettleheimÃ’s analysis. The main focus of any fairy tale is to convey a message or moral story. Cinderella is an excellent example of this. Sibling rivaly, as Bettleheim asserts, is a touchy subject for many families, but is no doubt apparent in nearly every single family group.
The subject of sibling rivaly is found even in my own family. I was always the smart one, my middle brother the athletic one(not to say I'm not athletic), and my youngest brother was stuck with really nospecialtiess ornoticeablee strengths. He spends nearly all of his time playing video games, and nearly no time focusing on school. My family and I included believed that this would be his downfall, but we couldn't be more wrong. My youngest brother, at 14 years of age, is a video game expert. He can explore the depths of any video game and discover the strangest of items within them. Recently, he begandesigningg his own video game in his spare time, with a whole notebook full of notes, conceptual drawings, and detailed level sketches. My father and I, both being programmers, began recently to push video game design on to him, and he has taken this new subject to heart. What we had thought would be his "slavery" (as in the Cinderella story) actually turned out to be a plausible career path.
All of this is very much true in Bettleheim's analysis of Cinderella. He suggests that this rivalry between siblings (not that my middle brother and I intended to do so) ultimately pushes the disgruntled sibling to better him/herself. My middle brother has turned to be a mess up in school, and rarely involves himself in any physical activity, yet my youngest brother is both improving his grades and his intellect. Bettleheim says "the child is gradually subjected to ever more critical attitudes as he is being socialized". I feel that this statement is very much true in my youngest brother. As he has gone through the social net ofelementaryy school and into higher education he has been pushed out as a sort of outcast. This descocialization only pushed him further into the other world of video games, and progressed his knowledge of video game mechanics. Thus, I believe that Bettleheim is in line with my thoughts on the purpose of the Cinderella story and thetroubless that come from sibling rivalry.
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