Blog #1 Elbow
Writing has long been considered a means of thinking or discovering one's own position about a given topic or idea. Compositionist Peter Elbow has often been a proponent for using writing as a means of thinking, and he is known for encouraging free writing activities as a way of clarifying ones' ideas. In “Teaching Two Kinds of Thinking By Teaching Writing,” he discusses two types of writing and likens these to two different types of thinking. Throughout the essay he makes an argument that you may or may not agree with, based on your own experience and on the support he offers for his claims.
Consider your own experiences with the two types of thinking Elbow describes and evaluate the validity of his claims. Using personal experience and textual evidence from his essay as support, develop a position regarding his argument.
posted by DrEmmerling at 1:54 PM
46 Comments:
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Elbow discusses first-order thinking as what is creative and uncensored and second-order thinking as a type of controlled and conscious thinking. First-order thinking is important during a "brainstorming" stage. It is helpful and you may think of things that you would not have thought of any other way. I have found that it is a good way to start papers. Sometimes i find that I am too lost until I just get some ideas on paper. Elbow describes how second-order thinking "often brings out people's worst thinking" because it is too structured. He sees first-order thinking as "heightened intelligence." It seems that a mixture of both types of thinking creates the best type of writing. First-order thinking is good to get ideas started but second-order thinking is important to have in order to maintain control and a cohesive, logical statement.
-Alexis Nichols
In Elbow's essay he discusess two orders of thinking. The first, "intuitive and creative", and the second, "concious, directed, and controlled". Both of which I use in on a day-to-day basis.
I use the first order of thinking when creating new ideas for my website. The ideas that I have discovered for future services have almost entirely been using this first-order of thinking. In my opinion, it is this first order of thinking that really pushes innovation in every sector of business and life. In business there is no time to waste on second-order thinking, and often the most important decisions are made within the first 5 seconds of being asked a question. When speaking to a new client or potential partner, you have these 5 seconds of response time to push your company's message accross in a coherent, yet concise manner. Consequently, these first-order "intuition" thoughts can also get you into a great deal of trouble. One night last April I had a choice of either going to sleep or taking out my precious new car before my vacation the following morning. The beauty and awe of the new car made my first-order decision to be for the latter. Ten minutes later, after a very high speed run, ten thousand citizens were without power, my car in ruins, and myself in deep trouble. Thankfully, this led to no harm to myself or anyone else for that matter. These are my main thoughts on the first-order of thinking.
Second-order or "concious, directed, and controlled" thinking has also been put to good use in my life. My decision to come to UCSB and to stay in my native Santa Barbara is one of these decisions. I had dreams of going to over east to visit a prestigious university, such as MIT or Harvard, in pursuit of obtaining ultimate knowledge of both computer science and business. Over the course of my last two years of high school, I had a come to the realization that Santa Barbara was the place for me. My dad had gone to UCSB, and also grew up most of his life in Santa Barbara. Many of the companies that I work and worked with were based almost entirely in the Southern California region. In addition, I knew UCSB was an amazing school in both computer science and is economics/business, and my family has many connections in those departments. All in all, this second-order of thinking has made the core decision of what I am today. How it is you respond to a faulty first-order thought is with controlled second-order thinking.
All in all, first and second order thinking plays a role in every day life for both myself, and everyone around me. Brilliant and rash decisions can come from either first-order thinking or second-order thinking, and for this reason, neither can be trusted to produce the "best" outcome.
I believe that Peter Elbow has a valid point in his argument of the two different types of thinking. Everybody has heard the expression "left or right brain thinker" and I believe it applies to this argument.
"First-order thinking is intuitive and creative and doesn't strive for conscious direction or control." I believe this is the type of thinkine we all use when we are doing creative activities such as art or even just sitting and the beach and daydreaming. The lack of conscious direction or control is what allows an artist to create a masterpiece most could never think.
However this "free" type of thinking is rivaled by a quite opposite type of thinking described by Elbow as "Second-order thinking." This is the type of thinking that is commonly used in the newspaper articles we read everyday or in a students schoolwork. This type of thinking is the type that comes to mind when "critical thinking" is mentioned. For example, in a newspaper article, instead of a free and directionless approach, each word, each scentence is carefully thought out and placed in the ideal spot to create a well written article.
I have found these two different types of thinking in my writings. Writing my college essays when applying to UCSB I carefully planned out my thoughts, edited each paragraph, and scrutinized each word. The "Second-order thinking" caused me to look at my paper critically as I knew the people reviewing it would. However in free writing assignments where my thoughts are the only thing being reviewed I use the "First-order thinking" letting my thoughts and feelings spill out onto the pages and not going in any certain direction. I then check it over just to make sure it all comes together but the main idea is free and original.
It is with my own personal experience and observations of Elbow's essay that I find his argument to be valid and very thought provoking. I never realized the way thought varies depending on the circumstances, but Elbow got me thinking.
In Elbow's article, Teaching Two Kinds of Thinking by Teaching Writing Elbow's views on second order thinking appealed more to my personal experience of thinking because it is "concious, directed, controlled thinking."
Second order thinking is a way of thinking in which you are to,"...steer instead of being steered." In second order thinking, one is much more critical of their thoughts and examines all of their choices through critical analysis instead of in first order thinking where one would simply trust what is told to them without any doubt or further questioning.
I agree with Elbow's analysis on the two types of thinking,although I differ in opinion as to what should be constituted as first order and what should be second order thinking." First order thinking often heightens intelligence.." says Elbow and yet, " ...we are also likely to be fooled by first order thinking." If first order thinking brings about much more intellect, then why is it confusing? It is confusing because," ...we don't reflect on what we are doing, hence we are more likely to be steered by our unaware assumptions, our unconcious prejudices, our unexamined point of view." Elbow feels that,"...often...no shape or organization emerges...just random...thoughts...." That is why I do agree with Elbow in that we cannot just survive intellectually with one of the two orders of thinking, hence we need a bit of both orders of thinking to help us be better as academics as well as writers. I fit more towards second order thinking, yet do have some styles of first order thinking which helps me to personally,"...generate a rich array of insight." It is interesting that after reading this insightful piece, I can now separate my thinking techniques into two very different, yet co-dependent styles of thinking.
- A. Harness
Elbow talks about two types of thinking throughout the article, and I would have to agree with him when he talks about 2nd order thinking. He stated that when people are told to write or think critically about something they end up sounding dumber than they truely are. Some often overanazylze a situation or a reading so deeply that they may loose the original meaning of the piece, and when using 1st order thinking to write people can express more clearly what it is they want to say. They do not over think a situation and loose their original point. I too have found myself troubled when using 2nd order thinking. I find that it is harder for me to get a point across if I try to think about one thing too much. Although 2nd order thinking is harder to use when writing as Elbow says it is a way to check our way of thinking. I believe that this kind of thinking can help the writing process.
Elbow takes into account how the majority of writing is based on second-order writing. He also comment on how intelligence comes from first-order writing. As a person who likes to write on based on facts and not on a narrative that is used for entertainment, I beleive that, although first-order witing is a necessity in writing, second-order thinking is, not only what shows one's intelligence, but also is the most important in out society.
In my experiences in writing I feel that second-order writing has not only been the source of where I was able to develop the skills to write, but also where my most confortable writing has come from. Elbow states, "...second-order thinking are often slow backward steps into wrong headedness" (57). Unlike Elbows statement, I beleive that second-order thinking and writing is a step foward. When critically thinking and opinion-based writing, it helps demonstrate intelligence based on factual evidence. As someone who likes "rant" on a blog, I feel that second-order writing shows ones' true writing tallent.
Kyle Valenzuela
In my personal experiences first-order thinking has always worked in my favor. I am a opinionated writer and I have always used the tactic of just writing the first think that comes up in my head. My writing, a lot like my speaking is very fast, I try to get all of my ideas out in the open and then ask questions. He states that "For one of the main things that holds us back from being as creative as we could be is fear of looking silly or being wrong." By being a second-order thinker, the writer is critical and is always looking for the right answer or at least the most common answer. First-order thinking is widely used in the area of humanities, and from personal experiences of watching my bio major friend write a paper is that second-order thinking is probably used more in the science world. I agree with Elbow in that first-order thinking should be used in writing first drafts to present all of the ideas you are thinking about writing. Second-order should also be used to critique and edit your work. The problem that all of my T.A.s seem to have with my work is that it was not edited. So in that sense I seem to be more of a strictly first-order thinker.
- J. Karmelich
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In his article, "Teaching Two Kinds of Thinking by Teaching Writing", author Peter Elbow presents two "orders" of thinking that contribute to the writing process each in their own distinct way. Elbow argues that in order to optimize one’s argument and thoughts for a composition, he or she must think in both orders. First-order thinking, as Elbow explains, is “intuitive and creative and doesn’t strive for conscious direction or control” (55). On the contrary, second-order thinking is much more controlled and regimented. Throughout his composition, Peter Elbow correctly reasons that a compelling written piece must be thought of from the first order of thinking and writing, and subsequently revised with the second.
Elbow offers examples of first order thinking as writing free-writes and first drafts, where the author need not worry about a technically perfect piece, and therefore have the ability to (even subconsciously) think of powerful arguments for their compositions. He exerts this point by comparing the first-order writing to speaking in front of an audience: “Solitary writing for no audience is often more productive than speaking. Speaking is almost invariably to an audience, and an audience puts pressure on us to make sense and avoid inferences we cannot explain” (59). Although as authors, we are not necessarily pressured to speak, we are often pressured to write for an audience. Just like public speaking, thinking about writing for an audience could hinder our thought abilities and make compositions much less interesting and thoughtful. Therefore, it is important to free write first to exhibit powerful ideas without the pressures of technical perfection.
However, Elbow doesn’t forget to include that a second-order more controlled style of thinking and writing. This second-order is used more in the revision process and is more concerned of grammatical correctness, revised, and ultimately perfect writing. A student could not simply turn in a free write or first draft of a paper as a final product to his or her professor. Thus, the second-order of thinking and writing helps to channel the thoughts expressed from the first-order, and helps to revise and perfect the piece as a finished work.
In his piece, Peter Elbow asserts that it is necessary to both write and think in the first and second order. If one does not use the first order of thinking and writing, than his or her final work risks the chance of being dry and thoughtless from too much pressure. Similarly, if an author does not use the second order, then his or her writing may be incoherent and unprofessional. As a result, it is absolutely necessary for a writer to employ both orders of thinking and writing in order to make their piece thoughtful and effective.
After discussing the method of free, stream-of-concious generative writing followed by careful, thoughtful critique and revision, Elbow qualifies his propositions by noting that there are "many good thinkers or writers who contradict each other and even themselves in their methods," and that the most simplistic form of this method of switching back and forth between "first-order" and "second-order" thinking is not the exact sequence that will work for every writer.
If it is the case that some individuals possess different ways of using first and second-order thinking, it could be asked if there is something that determines that all individuals will use seperate first and second-order thinking at all. Elbow identifies the battle between reason, rationality, or logic (second-order) and feeling, irrationality or impulse (first-order) as one of the main ways "the history of our culture is experienced." However, Elbow never establishes it as a universal experience.
It seems reasonable to assume that if the human brain is, as Elbow acknowledges, varied enough to use different combinations of first and second-order thinking, it should be varied enough to have modes of thought which fall outside of the two kinds that Elbow discusses and works with.
As to the process itself, there are no readily apparant downsides of using both kinds of thought in seperate steps to produce a written piece, and it is easy to agree with Elbow that it should have many benefits.
- Ted Howard
Peter Elbow's position in "Teaching Two Kinds of Thinking by Teaching Writing" is that two types of thinking exist; first order thinking which comes out as creative, spontatneous writing, and second order thinking that is more of the collected thoughts and critical analyzes of words. Elbow makes a strong argument that usually a person prefers one form over the other, but one should have a mix of both thoughts, to make their writing sound interesting and intelligent.
Based on Elbow's theories, I am a first order thinker. I prefer to write about things freely and not be forced to worry about improper grammar or my misuse of vocabulary. I understand why Elbow likes this type of thinking more because it does seem easier to think freely when you don't have to worry about how you come off as a scholar. He makes the claim that the first order thinkers like freewriting and think of it more as a holiday, whereas second order thinkers fear they will lose all intelligence if they don't write with direction.
Elbow's forms of thinking remind me of my freshman year of high school. I was thrown into this new little world, and was terrifed as I walked into English class. The first day all we did was discuss grammar. And we continued to study grammar for weeks after that. Then one day at the beginning of the period, instead of doing our daily grammar lesson, she instructed the class to take out a sheet of paper, then proceed with a very general topic about our role models, and told us we had the entire period to freewrite. I was lost. I had that typical second order fear that I would forget everything I had just learned about writing and everything would come out poorly.I kept trying to write something, but would be forced to stop and worry about my grammar or word choice. I had alot of erasures on my paper, and was in the middle of erasing when my teacher walked up and told me to stop erasing, stop thinking about everything else, and just write what I felt about that topic. Once I stopped worrying about everything, the words just flowed from my pen. Then when the class was done writing we went back and edited continously. In the end my paper not only reflected my personal self, but my skills as a student, and I knew this was how I should write from then on. The methods my teacher used I think were similar to how Elbow would teach his students to write because they had a mixture of creative writing from the freewrite, but when we began editing and adding concrete details it showed more orderly writing.
Based on that experience and by many others I had during my school years, a combonation of first and second order thinking makes an overall better writer.
-Lauren B.
Well, i figured that there would be no better way to respond to this prompt then by using the method of first-order think as Peter Elbow describes. I strongly agree with his claims about first-order thinking as being "intuitive" and "creative." I have always been able to write much stonger papers when i just sit down and write what ever come to my mind. I have found from my own experiencs that, as Elbow suggests, second-oder thinking can often be less effective and weaken an argument. I feel that this concept pretains to more than just writing. My neighborhood often plays a big game of trivial pursuit. I have observed that when a question is asked that seems challenging, team mates spend an unecessary amount of time debating the answer. They often develop an answer quickly, ultimately the right one, then try to think more in-depth about the question and end up changing their answer, to an incorrect response. Following an insticnt will usually allow us to develop a much more structured and overall stronger response. Second-order thinking is usefull for editing and revising, however, it shoould not be the only means by which a paper is written. By simply using "syntax" as Elbow explains to scribble down at least the begginings of a paper, it is much easier to develop a solid hypothesis and respond to it with a better thesis. Using first-order thinking also helps bring out a writing style that agrees with the writer. If a writer tries to intially write to a strict format he/she will no doubtedly excluded possibly their most insightful thoughts. A writer's style is what makes them unique and helps them to develop new ideas nad therefore new writings. Good writing flows along from point to point, and it is much easier to create a piece that flows if we simply write and disregard "rules" and handle them only after the bulk of the text has been written.
Elbow could not be more accurate in his arguments that while both first and second-order thinking are needed in creating a strong piece of writing, too much emphasis is placed on second-order thinking. If you are not the strong english type or this just doesn't make sense to you then put it into a math or science concept. One comes before two. Without one ther can be no two. First-order thinking are any ideas that you develop immeadiately after reading a prompt, it's what comes first (hence the name). Second-order thinking only emerges aafter you have read and re-read the prompt and have then started to formualted a structured argument, it comes second. First-order thinking thus provides a starting point and a path to second-order thinking. If you try to bypass the path or ignore the foundation then your "structured" (I use the term lightly because the fact is it will no longer be that structured) argument will not be a true refelction of your thoughts and ideas.
-Matt Hale
From my own personal experience I would have to agree with Elbow's claim opinions about first and second order thinking. I can usually write much quicker and more effectively when writing creatively or about a subject that requires little "critical thinking". For example when I write creative short stories, especially one's that are fictional, I am able to write a lot more in a shorter period of time because I can just use my imagination and don't have to analyze. I find that when I write essays using second order thinking or analysis they seem kind of robotic. I also find that when I write using second order thinking it takes me much longer. The disadvantage that I have found with first order writing is that sometimes because I am not "thinking" when I am writing I tend to stray off topic and whatever I am writing about becomes hard to follow. Elbow claims that you must check over first order writing with second order in order to verify that it is no just a cluster of random thoughts strung together. When writing longer papers I find it easiest to first get my ideas onto paper and then to go back and read it over and revise what I wrote previously. I agree with Elbow's claim that when you overthink while writing it usually does not come out as good as it could. When writing my college essays, especially essays for UC schools, I would use first order thinking just to get my ideas down. Then, because the essays were so short, I would go back and revise them multiple times adding and subtracting using more of a critical approach looking at the essay as a whole instead of from the first order perspective. I do not really agree with Elbow's opinion that using first order thinking when writing a paper or arguing is definitely better, because I think that it probably depends on the person. For example when I am arguing or debating I like to think about it more before I say it because when I use first order thinking I often find that my argument is not cohesive at all. Where as whe nI use second order thinking I can have one point leadl to another point.
Peter Elbow presents two kinds of thinking that in reality are necessary in creating a piece of writing. First-order thinking is a process which involves free writing, simply jotting down ideas as they come to mind not necessarily in chronological order. Elbow's sees this as an opportunity for the student to be able to express his or her basic ideas without having to think ahead and critically analyze as a first step. Sure first-order thinking is not the standard but it allows the student to start somewhere rather than writing a fully developed essay from scratch. Second-order thinking is the final process and allows the student to fully analyze his or her ideas and elaborate further on. According to Elbow, the two are necessary in order to create well written material as it allows the student to develop his or her ideas through a process which eventually leads to the finished material.
I agree with Elbow’s two orders of thinking as they both are needed to produce a well written paper. In high school I never realized how important it was to utilize the first-order of thinking when writing essays. I basically started with a blank screen and in the end had two or three pages of simple ideas. I believed I had a finished product but in reality I did not analyze and elaborate my ideas, which is the second-order of thinking. Now, I realize that free writing is necessary in the completion a fully developed critically analyzed argument.
Elbow begins his article with establishing two types of thinking or writing. The first type of writing Elbow talks about is free writing that is "not controlled and creative." The second type of writing is "directed and critical" and may also involve going over your free writing. Elbow claims that successful writing comes from going back and forth between the two in a process of "generating and criticizing" you’re writing. The first type of writing will open your mind to all ideas, even though you may get off track or away from the prompt. Elbow teaches that the second type of writing will "weed out" the ideas that are unnecessary or wrong. Using first order thinking creates new ideas and let’s words flow so at least there is something to work with when you begin writing a second draft.
I definitely agree with Elbows view on writing even though I have never used this method. Usually I skip the first type of writing and go straight to the critical thinking which causes time delay and getting stuck in a thinking rut. This causes frustration and the reason why academic writing isn’t enjoyable. The only experience I have had using the first type of thinking is journaling or writing I do on my own, which enjoyable. The article was extremely interesting and the advice is worth trying.
One disagreeable point is on outlining. Elbow says it’s useless to outline before you begin writing because it will put you in second order thinking right away. On the other hand, an outline may drive your first order thinking in the right direction because the ideas, topics, or points are already established that are to be included in the paper. Then a person may also add to the outline they have created if first order thinking creates new ideas they would like to include.
- Lauren Young
In Elbow's article, he stated, "the goal of first-order thinking or writing is to relax vigilance and be taken on as many rides as possible: as long as we remember that this is only half the process. We must assess the results with second-order thinking or revising". I agree with Elbow I feel that free-writing is important since it lets the writer relax and write down anything relating to the topic that comes to our minds. It is easier to just sit there and begin writing about whatever comes to the mind then trying to write an outline without any knowledge of what to write. According to Elbow, he blieves that free-write is also a way of thinking. The more ideas we can gather for the topic the easier it is to complete the paper. After the first order process we should come back to critque and revise the paper. Therefore, the first order process can be revised in order to make the paper flow and make sense.
Mr.Peter Elbow shows us first-order and second-orderthinking. First-order thinking is intuitive and creative and second-order thinking strives for control and conscious direction. He states that the two kinds of thinking have the opposite virtues and vices and we should not trust the result of the first-order thinking without examining it with the second-order thinking. Elbow thinks first-order thinking is not valuable since we are likely to be steered by our unaware prejudices and assumptions, but I think this is more important than the second-order thinking to write an interesting essay since each sentence comes directry from our mind.
First of all, Elbow claims you must let your subconscious guide your first rough draft and prewriting in order to create a cache of ideas to draw from. He then suggests allowing your conscious correct and polish the ideas gleaned from your subconscious.
Throughout most of my experience, I have simply just used what Elbow names “second-order thinking.” This, of course, logically includes academic papers and assignments. I would first brainstorm and come up with a thesis. Then I would go through my reading and my memory to find any evidence that supports my thesis. After that, I would simply try and figure what way best presents my argument.
The only experience I have had with “first order thinking” would be certain phrases that randomly appeared and would crowd out all other thoughts if not written down. Many times, I would use these phrases as support or a means to create more ideas. However, other than these instances, my writing would follow a systematic plan.
Elbow's two pronged approach to writing could only be used in cases where time was not an issue. Surely, one would never use 10 minutes writing without order in a testing situation. When time is crucial, one would simply use a more systematic approach to cover all the points needed in a response to the prompt. However, if one had an assignment due much later, this example seems to offer a wealth of opportunities. One would be able to discover what is already known about the subject and perhaps, personal viewpoints and ideas that may have not come up initially.
Another valid idea is the fact that concentrating on one thing at a time seems to lead to better results. Concentrating only on creating ideas and then later concentrating on revising would seem to almost guarantee a superior product. Or in the author’s words:“But the fact remains that most people get more and better thinking- and less time-wasting- if they start of generating.” Elbow’s claims overall seem to make logical sense, but personal experience is needed to see if his claims have any merit.
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Elbow's break up of writing and thinking into two levels is an interesting approach. There are two very different ways of thinking and writing. As he says, creative and critical thinking uses mentalities that tend to conflict with each other. I agree with his opinion for the most part. There are obviously, two different mentalities between first-order and second-order. Personally, I write in second-order thinking for almost any writing longer than half a page. Even if I planned to write on a first-order basis, I tend to be consious of what I wrote and start changing what I have written and what I am about to write into a logical and controlled piece. Elbow writes about how becuase the two level of thinkings are basically opposites, logic and rationality versus impulse and irrationality, they should be honed seperately. Both orders of writing and thinking should be used as "mutual reinforcements" of one another. In other words, both are needed to write excellently. I am not in complete agreement with this part of Elbow's article. Not every one needs both skills, or uses both skills to write well. I have friends, who like me, think mostly in the second-order and do well on essays and reports. I have others who are strictly on the first-order, and they do minimal rechecking of what they write and still come out with excellent writings. So I do agree that there are two different ways of thinking and writing, but, both aren't needed to write well.
I agree with Peter Elbow's opinions and veiws on both first and second order thinking. Based on my own experiences, I have found that it is much easier to stumble upon a great and valid idea by simply beginning writing with no direction. Elbow reffurs to this as freewriting (writing with no structure or guildlines), a type of writing where ideas flow much quicker than critical writting. In critical writing Elbow says that one is forced to think about thinking, and this can lead to much confusion. When I attempt to use critical thinking I often come across writers block, and writing becomes tedious and time consuming, but I find that if I begin with first order thinking, and then go back and review my work, the resulting ideas are much more creative and valid. I believe that both first and second order thinking are essencial, and one is not more important than the other. The two contradicting styles of writing must both be used together, switching back and forth in order to revise ones freewriting. Elbow would say that first order thinking spurs more second order thinking. I know that this holds true for me because when I begin exploratory writing, then return to my work, I am able to think critically and make improvements and improvisions. Another reason I believe Elbow's possitions on first and second order thinking are valid is because I often find when I use first order thinking, I reach conclusions that I wanted to reach using second order thinking. However, when I attempt to think critically to come to these conclusions, often times I am not able to. Elbow states that first order thinking is often unreliable, and this is another area where I must agree. I have been steared in the wrong direction in the past when using exploratory writing, but by examining my writing using critical thinking I can spot my mistakes and assumptions and correct them. Many would say that writing criticaly and creatively at the same is ideal, but this is much more difficult because these types of writing are complete opposites. I instead find that the key to successful writing is to focus on one style at a time, and switch back and forth between the two. This stratagy has proven to work best for me, and it is for this reason, as well as reasons previously stated in this blog, that I agree with Peter Elbow's oppinions on these two types of thinking.
Chris Albo
In the essay "Teaching Two Kinds of Thinking by Teaching Writing", Peter Elbow discuss the importance of freewriting and fast exploratory writing on first drafts. He believes that writing without any rules and control would enhance one's creative thinking and ability to bring out more unique ideas and various concepts of writings. I write daily journal before I go to sleep. It is just something that I do everyday ever since I moved to the states four years ago. I started to write whatever I think and do even little things daily basis in my journal. I kept writing them because I liked how I can write without worrying about making grammatical mistakes or thinking too carefully about what I have to say in a piece of paper. I could express myself and generate my opinions and ideas better and faster when I write my journal then when I write academic papers that require critical thinkings and all the rules that already set.
Jesus,
I strongly agree with your argument, and I find that my personal experiences are quite similar to yours. In high school, I too only wrote in the second order. It yielded technically correct papers, but with fairly weak ideas. Although I am a first-year and have not yet written a college paper, I believe that using both orders (just like you argued) will be very beneficial for me. You seem to really value the first-order as a way to enhance your arguments and ideas, and obviously still the second order to complete and refine your thoughts. I am also going to try to use the first-order more before I begin to wite my "finished product" in order to strenthen my points. Hopefully it will be as successful as it has been for you.
in response to Janet's post:
I do agree with her that second order thinking can lead to overanalysis of a piece. When a person reads a piece, sometimes they think that they are looking for a particular something in that piece that maybe isn't present or maybe is blatenly obvious but because we always are critical on ourselves, we dig and dig for a " deeper" meaning, leading us to become too critical on ourselves and over analyzing the situation. Whereas if you simply use first order thinking, then you can immediately say what you feel first and foremost without having to sit and debate and ponder, which can lead to misunderstandings.Even though overanalysis can lead to frustration and the possible loss of the original purpose of a piece, it does help us to become a more critical and aware reader and writer because we look for things, either explicit or implicit which can maybe lead us to something that will be of benefit in the future of analysis.
Response to Alexis' post.
I completly agree with Alexis. In my experience first-order thinkng is the only type of thinking that should be involved in any brainstorming activity, whether it be on paper in person. Brainstorming, as discussed, is the fundamental starting point for any major decision process. It is only when the brainstorming is finished that the real and "true" work begins. Transfering those cognitive thoughts into a defined and well organized fashion shows the inherent difficulties with second-order thinking.
The cohesion between first and second order thinking creates the best outcome, but it is, in my opinion, difficult to discover the correct balance to acchieve a "controlled and cohesive logical statement". In summary, I think that Alexis' post was definently on point and in line with my own ideas.
-Sam
In response to Jesus's comment:
I found it interesting the way he interpreted Elbow's argument as it was exactly what i was thinking of. He said he would only use one kind of thinking when writing a paper and have a couple pages worth of thoughts and ideas but never went back to critically look at it.
I believe that Elbows idea was that first-order thinking was good to get your ideas down and then use second order thinking to shape his paper into a well thought out and executed paper. This is what Jesus said he would do in writing his papers, exactly as Elbow suggested.
In response to jengkarmel
I would have to agree with you when it comes to first order thinking and writing papers since I too find it easier to write in first order.I find myself thinking so many things at once that I am unable to write them all down and organize them at the same time.I must begin writing in first order then go back and use second order to try and perfect my papers. I also find myself having the problem of TA's reading my papers, and saying that I need to edit my papers more.
Jenkarmel,
It is interesting how the first order thinking works for you. I always seem to do the brainstorming and going through all the first thoughts in my head, instead of writing them down so when I go to write my first draft I forget half of my ideas. Also, I begin second order thinking during brainstorming and convince myself my ideas are wrong or irrelevant to the paper and end up with nothing to write about before I start. I probably spend twice as much time writing a paper than I should. Unlike you, my papers are grammatically correct but don’t have a strong point or finished thought process.
-Lauren Young
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In response to Janet:
I agree with Janet. I find it very common for myself to overanalyze sentences etc. when writing. I become so focused on the first-order thinking that it is hard to just write what I am trying to say. First-order thinking can make your ideas more apparent and not as restricted. I also have a hard time with second-order thinking if my first-order thinking process wasn't successful. I have a tendency to focus on a specific aspect in my essay and forget the bigger picture if I'm using second-order thinking without an in depth process of first-order thinking.
kimberly,
I agree with your views on how first order thinking comes naturally without having to worry about being "correct" so to speak. Your example of keeping a journal further tells me that you enjoy first-order thinking as opposed to second-order thinking. Though you does not say it, freewriting such as you do in your journal allows you to become a better writer. You realize that you have much more trouble when writing academic papers, but by using first-order thinking in academic papers it will be easier for you to go on to second-order thinking.
I agree with jared heinrich in saying that first-order thinking has more to do with arts and free writing, and second-order thinking is involved more in academic writing. First and second-order thinking can be put into two categories by the subject you atre writing about. First-order is a creative way of thinking that can be used in art, poetry and music, and second-order is used more in critical writings that need straightforword facts.
-J. Karmelich
Janet,
I agree with what you have to say about second order thinking when you state that people can often overanalize a situation so much that they forget the original meaning of what it is they were talking about. I find that when I think to deeply about any given senario or situation I often become confused and cannot come to a rational conclusion. However, when I use first order thinking I find that I often am able to come to a rational conclusion. Not only do I not overthink the senario, I also come to my conclusion much quicker than if I was to use second order thinking. You also stated that second order thinking is a way of reviewing what we wrote when using first order thinking. I must agree with you again because after I use first order thinking, I then go back and critic my oppinions, making sure I didn't make any false assumptions that would lead me in the wrong direction. Overall I agree with your views on Elbow's oppinions of both of these writing styles.
-Chris Albo
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Response to Rita:
I agree with this argument. Especially when writing an academic paper, the usual systematic method of organizing thoughts into an outline and then applying it to a formal paper is usually the best method of approach. Second-order thinking and critical thinking work hand-in-hand especially when stuck with a time constraint. I also believe that a person with little time on their hands will tend to follow a more formal second-ordered approach. The person with more time to spare might stop, think and follow a more creative first-ordered approach (or they might procrastinate till the last minute and follow the more formal method).
Janet,
I agree with you. When I write I always write down whatever comes to my mind. I feel that it is more difficult to start out a paper, writing in second order because it requires the writer to overanalyze and think more critically. Thinking critically is not a good way to start off a paper because it is too structured. Whenever I try to think critically it is harder to write since there are no ideas to go from. However, second order thinking is also important because you need to use it to revise and improve the first order writing.
I would comment briefly on Samuel Dolan's connection of Elbow's first-order thinking as it applies to writing to what he calls the first-order thinking of business. Dolan says that "it is this first order of thinking that really pushes innovation in every sector of business." It would seem to me that any succesful business or non-business enterprise will require quite a bit of second-order thinking as well, if the two categories of thought presented by Elbow can even be legitimately transferred to another, much broader area. While a new product of service might indeed be devised in a flash of intuitive thinking, an organization would also require plenty of careful second-order thinking when it comes to financing, marketing, etc. Dolan's example is of "speaking to a new client or potential partner" an activity which gives one to "seconds of response time to push your company's message accross in a coherent, yet concise manner." This would seem more to be an issue of salesmanship than thinking, dealing more with clever methods of gaining interpersonal trust through body language and other non-verbal social interaction than the concept of first-order thought as Elbow conceives of it.
Response to xkingalbertivx:
You give a good summary, giving the author's points and then relating them to your own experiences. It seems however, you just didn't want to disagree with the author. Like in your response, you say that you often reach the same conclusions in your first order writing as your second order writing. At the same time, you say you've been steered in the wrong direction when you use first order writing. It is somewhat contradictory.
Rita,
I can relate strongly with your views about Peter Elbows article about first and second order thinking because I agree with much you are saying. Although first order thinking seems more creative and easier to let things out, to some it does seem tedious and a method some scholars never learned while in school. I know that I never had many chances to free write in my high school years, so I relied on second order thinking with most papers because it was the only method I knew how to use.
A great valid argument you make is that "concentrating on one thing at a time seems to lead to better results." I think that is the key thing to remember when writing. As long as you have a main topic that interests you, use whatever form of thinking you find helpful for you to get your point across.
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I chose to response to the comment written by Kyle Valenzuela. Valenzuela believes that second-order thinking helps people to think more critically and logically before generating their thoughts and opinions to the writing. However, I think that first-order thinking and writing should come first and critical and logical revising comes afterwards because it is usually easier for many people to bring out their creative and unique points when there are any rules and controls. I think people feel more comfortable and confidence in showing their intelligence and tallent when they write unconsciously.
Kyle, I have to disagree with your statements on second-order thinking as being the basis of writing and showing one's intelligence. First-order thinking forms the foundation of writing. It is instinct and therefore brings out the core of the writer's thoughts and beliefs. Though the majority of writing that is taught is second-order writing, it is not the bulk of the paper. Second-order writing gives guidance on things such as, transitions, grammer, etc. The real basis of the paper comes from the writer's ideas which can be best expressed through first-order writing.
You also believe that second-order thinking shows "true" intelligence. However, you aknowledged and seemed to agree with Elbow's statement that "intelligence comes from first-order thinking." This confused me a little, but either way I believe that the real answer would change based on your definition of "intelligence." It could be the ability to express your deepest thoughts and beliefs on paper, or the ability to writer to a specific set of rules. I think it is open to interpretation. I would have thought that you would practice first-order wrting more through your blogging. IT seems taht is somewhat like a journal or a way to simply write your thoughts while ignoring "rules."
-Matt Hale
In reponse to Jared Jeinrich:
I agree with most of what has been said by Jared. I really like the point that he made that masterpieces are created by first coming up with a topic and then continuously revising the first-order thinking with second order thinking. People who create masterpieces rarely just sit down and create it on the first try. They use a combination of second-order and first-order thinking. I had a little bit of a different personal experience with regards to the UC essays that I wrote. Instead of carefully planning out each essay I got my thoughts down and then went back with second-order thinking and made a number of revisions. I agree with his statement that he uses first-order thinking when completing free writing assignments. I find it easiest just to write continuously until I run out of ideas and then double check with second-order thinking and make sure that it has direction and is organized.
In response to Lauren Young’s post:
I completely agree with your viewpoint. Writing in the first degree will help you consider all ideas regardless if they made complete logical sense. In high school, I discarded many different prompts and ideas that would possibly made interesting papers because I thought there wasn’t enough information to support them. I think this might have made my papers a bit difficult to write and read.
You’ve also mentioned that starting writing in the second degree would sometimes take you nowhere since it is so difficult to start with. I’ve also been completely at a loss at what to write when I try and think things through completely. Especially on timed essays where I would spend half the time I had trying to figure out what to write.
However, I don’t think the outline works for me. When I use it, I simply write down what was in the outline and nothing more. Then I end up discarding the entire thing and writing on a course completely different from my outline. But, it’s probably different for different people. It does make sense that creating an outline would fence in your first degree thinking so it didn’t wander off too much.
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